At the time I was writing the first verse, I al… the first things — the formal verse — I also wrote lots of free verse then, but I… I… it didn't specially please me, and… and I thought: I'm doing better work in formal meters than I am in… I... I am letting myself go free and not turning up anything that I couldn't have done just as well in… in meter. That began to change, and… and when I came to the second book – After Experience – I felt that more and more of… of the free verse was… was printable and so forth, and so I… I don't know what the percentage in there, but… but there's a lot more than in the first book, there's a lot more free verse there. When I came to this, it seemed to me that I… what I… what I wanted to do was to try to make up new forms. I… I… there are some free verse people who… who always do things in free verse, but also there are quite a few nonce forms, like there’s this fancy graph form for Himmler, the… the fancy French forms for Magda, and… and not nearly so much free verse, which sort of bothers me. I had been thinking about my… my very dear friend, Anthony Hecht, who's a very, very formal poet in… in his early pieces, and then he did one or two poems that were just staggeringly powerful, in free verse, and then went back to formal verse, and I… I thought Tony don't do that, you know, go ahead with some… and since he didn't, I felt I should, but… but this… this… having got into this matter of form equal character, I had to go with more forms, and so I tended to make up new forms, nonce forms I think they are called, just made up for one occasion.