We don't know how much of cleanliness is symbolic, but even if it's not... even if washing the wall didn't actually get rid of the bug, it's certainly a very important symbolism of your care, and there were two elements to that. One is I realised that – it's probably not true of the modern generation managers – but those early managerial system people... I realised it wasn't a thing they thought was up to them, whereas I thought it very much was up to them. And the other thing was changing contracts for ward cleaning and, you know, you had these ward... what were they called, orderlies or whatever. Anyway, they were part of the staff, and they took the tea round and they knew the patients, more than I did because I wasn't there much and they were, in that sense. And, you know, Dolly would come and say, Mrs... and all that sort of stuff, and they were promised their jobs, but within weeks of the contract they got rid of them and they had perfectly pleasant, nice people but a) they didn't know how to deal with this, and b) they moved from ward to ward. And I regard that as a very, very important moment in... plus the managerial feeling of distance. I mean, I remember what... I was going to a meeting in London and I walked out to go to the tube at Tooting and the hall of ours was filthy. And I rang up to speak to the senior executive and he was somewhere else. Then I had to go to the meeting and I came back and rang again and I got hold of some junior administrator and the really depressing thing was that he was quite interested in what I said, he wasn't defensive at all, but he obviously didn't think it was what he was doing, part of his deal. Isn't that amazing? I mean a hall of a hospital should be cleaned many times a day, shouldn't it?

[Q] Absolutely.