The best epidemiologic study was done on the island of Taiwan by Dr Palmer Beasley who was working in Taiwan. He was from the University of Washington, but he had been in Taiwan for quite a long time. And he selected a bunch of government workers in Taiwan who were carriers and then a group of controls who weren't, followed them for several years and the number who developed primary cancer of the liver among the carriers was very much greater, and he determined a relevant risk of about 200. In other words there was a 200-fold greater probability. Now that figure wasn't upheld in some subsequent studies, you know, it probably varies from place to place but it's always been of that, you know, very high multiple and therefore a very important risk factor. So that meant we had a cancer vaccine. We had a... not a therapeutic vaccine, which had never worked as far as I could make out, but this was a preventive vaccine. People that were working on therapeutic vaccines still are but I don't think any of them, and certainly none in general use, as far as I know. But this was a really good preventative. Well, actually I spent a lot of time after that, trying to sort of move this idea forward and I spoke about it in many places and tried to get governments interested in it and I... I'm not sure that was such good use of my time but I... I wouldn't say I was, you know, I spent a lot of time talking to people.

[Q] Was it that they weren't interested in the concept of cancer prevention in general or did they not believe that this specific vaccine would happen?

You know things move kind of slowly, you know, the acceptance of the... of the technique takes time and I realized that based on our prior experience but I decided to spend a lot of my own time doing that, and... and which I... I kind of enjoyed, you know, when I felt it was — I wouldn't say enjoy, I thought it was important — but I, there was, I could have been doing other things. I got... I got a little too wrapped up in... in a way but it did have... it did, I think my moving on that did have... did have a positive effect.