Francis himself had got very interested in gradients. And he had got interested in what I told him about my meeting with Lewis Wolpert in Woods Hole, in which I found Lewis, as I've remarked, crying in the wilderness - I mean, literally crying, not… not yelling or screaming but with tears in the wilderness - because he could not get a single person there to understand what he was talking about. And everybody had just dismissed this in one of two ways. Either it had all been done before and was old-fashioned, or this is no way to explain things. Because at Woods Hole in that year I well remember a… a secret seminar which was held in the house of one of the… of a very high class exclusive to which I'd gone to, in which they had discussed the question of whether differentiation was a state or a process. Now… this seemed to me to be a very difficult question to ask, and the only way I could get to what they were trying to do was to explain to people that the difference between these is the difference between being laid-back and mellowing out, which was the jargon of that time. In other words, laid-back is the state and mellowing out is the process to achieve the state. And, of course, differentiation is both a state and a process - you'd need another word. However, that was the level of discussion at the time there.