I think, if I’m not mistaken, he [Irving Sher] may have come to work for us after Bob Hayne. Bob Hayne also, I think, had been at Smith Kline, too. I introduced Bob to Ted Herdgen so that... they had, both of them had been at Smith Kline. But I knew Bob from before. I think I got him the job, introduced him to Ted Herdgen, and so they moved up. Irv was a graduate; he had a DSc, not a PhD, Doctor of Science, which you get when you graduate from Johns Hopkins School. He went to the School of Hygiene at Johns Hopkins, which had the bio statistics program, so he was, he was both biologically and statistically trained. He was, he was just an unusual guy. So, as you know, he taught himself programming. He had his own system for shorthand. Anything he touched it was different. Now, on the other hand nobody else could replace him. If he did the program nobody else knew how to program it. So taking his stuff and modifying it was not easy. Anyhow he was, he was a very important step in the growth of the company, I think. He was very, very weird about different things, you know, he absolutely would refuse to put his name on papers. I would say, 'Irv, we’re doing this paper and you’re part of all this'. He wouldn’t care; I literally had to force him to put his name to a paper. I just put the name in and he wouldn’t argue anymore. But he would edit the paper, you know. He would do an incredible refereeing job. People hated him when he was a referee because he’s one of these kinds of referees that not only said... he’d say things like, 'That stupid ass'. It would be a personal attack of four letter words. But you couldn’t have got a better analysis of what was going on. He just was a very odd, strange guy.