I'm competitive, but I don't think I'm violent. If this correlation between width of face and, you know, I never, to my knowledge, have ever hit anyone. You know, it's not... well, with... it was only because I was a small one. And if you hit someone when you're small, you know, you lose. So never do anything where you're... so violence was not a way for a weak person to win. He would rather win in some other way. But, you know, when you say, English don't want to win, I just took it, well, you know, in the... particularly in the '70s and '80s when you were so... the financing was so poor that how were we going to compete, you know? You didn't have the resources and so a sort of fatalism came in that winning doesn't matter, because if it mattered you'd be so frustrated. Whereas if doesn't matter it's a... you know, it doesn't matter.

So I think now you'll find as there's more money around, has been more money around, that winning is suddenly a much more important thing. It does matter whether you get your article in Cell magazine. And, you know, judging over the last couple of years I think English microbiology is much more prominent than it was 10 years ago, in terms of just... obviously important new results that the people in England aren't necessarily behind the people elsewhere in the world. Whereas 20 years ago, I still remember when you and Av and I were together and I was saying UCL should build a new building for nucleic acids and call it Francis Crick. And Av looked at me and said I was an enemy of socialism. I just... it was the irrelevance of what he said, but, you know, the... to me, I was sort of saying it was important that UCL really be in the centre of the recombinant DNA world. You know, by... because you had that idiot who was head of a department of biotechnology... You know, it was their attempt not to give you any money, but to start up... it was a sort of random... thing, it was just a... someone who was on the fringes, whereas I said they should have a proper DNA, Sanger type stuff at UCL.

And there's the... and then you had... I know who I went and told that. I mean, when I... oh, it was the great mathematician who died swimming.

[Q] Lighthill.

What?

[Q] Lighthill.

Lighthill, yes. I... I went in, Av probably arranged, or you did, that I spoke to Lighthill about what UCL should do. And Lighthill was such an impressive person. Obviously, I learnt that he failed to get around Sark or something. It was down on the Scilly Isles, I think he was just... but it was probably a good way for him to go. I mean, he went when he was still probably turning out very good math.