I never went to church. And then I went, you know, sometimes just to keep company, so if my mother came I went to church. But then there was also a Jewish Synagogue... mosque, synagogue. I used to go there and then I went to Catholic – probably with my grandfather – to Catholic and the churches because I was interested in them all. And then there was a, one day my uncle called me, said, 'People are wondering why you... you go to other churches and we don't see you that often in our church'. So, of course, I had to explain it that I'm real interested. That was a scandal a little bit, because, especially my uncle, I'm his... okay if he's my uncle then I'm to him, what?

[Q] His nephew.

I'm nephew? I cannot figure out. If I'm the nephew of the priest; we're going into synagogue... what is this? But I was interested... but I was not, I was never religious, I was never for organised church but I'm very much interested in religious texts or mysterious religious texts. And certain persons, personalities, the saints, I'm very much interested in the saints. And people... where there is something very concentrated, some very concentrated energy which is not easy to explain and not easy to see or to know how far it goes and what it means, I'm interested, I was interested and I'm still interested in it. And actually, so much at some period that I had to almost restrain myself, ok, at the age of 16, 17, I was going too far in reading, you know, all those texts and, and I... I mean, that I could... I could tell, you know, that somebody's coming, I could tell what's happening around the corner and I thought, where, what's happening, where is this going, you know, like I'm leaving the realistic, down-to-earth, the ground, this is affecting me and I... I stopped like, until later already in the displaced person camps when I again picked up reading various texts on astrology and all these mystic – and again happened the same! I would see that... I see that there is somebody who was, I see blood – somebody has been run over around the corner there and then two minutes later they come and tell that a truck just killed this, you know, person. Or I see... I'm leaning on the wall and I can see a cyclist being also run over on the other side of the wall I'm standing. 'Hell', I said, 'this is... this is going too far'. And so I again abandoned the reading and concentrating on certain aspects of the experience with the exception of texts like St Augustine or St Theresa, which is completely something else. So, there is... danger lurking there; I have to sort of keep checking myself not to go. I like to be up front, to be on this earth with my Bolex because they, people don't realize that, you know, since I have gone through it and know that that exists and you can fall into it and it's no, not, not fantasy. I mean, even today I save a lot on telephone calls if I want, you know, to call somebody, you know, and in one minute or even in seconds that person calls me, so I still save a lot of money on telephone calls. But there are also dangers so...