From the other side, and the two things led together, as you will see, I became very interested in… in looking at cells under microscopes and what could you learn from this, and so I'd become very excited by the ability to do histochemistry – cytochemistry as it was called – and I thought somehow between the system that you grind up and the system that you can actually look at, you had to have some synthesis. Now of course, in those days, no one knew much about anything and so the questions that one always debated were: can you really find out about a living cell by taking it apart? And this is a great philosophical problem, and of course what one had come to realise, because of other things there, that Joe was a Marxist and so he believed in things…

[Q] This is Joe Gillman?

Joe Gillman. So he believed in things called dialectical synthesis, which I never understood… but anyway, is that you learn nothing from the mechanical disintegration of this. Later I understood where all these ideas came from by actually reading Lenin's book Materialism and Empirio-Criticism. Now, you may say that how does one get to read all of this, and now I have to tell you that one of the great things we did is we did a third subject; we had to do, it was compulsory for everybody doing a BSc degree – that you had to do the history and philosophy of science... as a formal subject.