For a long time we just talked, person to person. I sat… sitting… both of us sitting at his desk, and finally we got to the place where I was ready to go to the couch, and I went to the couch and as soon as you do that, you do start dreaming; and I think by now dreams have been in as a way sort of discarded as… as revealing much, but the things that you say about your dream are liable to be very revealing indeed, and as a matter of fact, I… when I come to think of it, some of those dreams were very revealing. And mostly he listens to you talk and to let you define things. I mean he… one of the things he said right off the bat was: 'We don't know what health would be. You have to decide what health for you would be, and we can't take curing you as the real aim because we don't know what cure… what cure would be. We don't know what health would be'.