We talked a lot while he was still a scientist in Oxford. Sadly, after he became Secretary of the MRC, it isn't that one- that I felt any cooler as a friend, but I did feel, like everybody does, just slightly awkward because he was in such a very powerful position. We connected again at the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, when we talked about it and we both recognised it as a major challenge to medical research, and I asked him whether I should do anything for him. I said, I was at your disposal if you want me to. And he said, no, he was going to do it himself. And I thought that was probably the right decision for him to make, actually. And he ran the AIDS programme, not for a very long time, for one or two or three years. It may be that I was well out of it because it looked an easy challenge, you know, build a vaccine, like the salt vaccine, and that would be the end of the problem, but it didn't work out like that, did it.