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What road will we follow?

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The approach towards the Round Table
Jacek Kuroń Social activist
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We need to be aware of the following fact. Soon after he came back from Japan, Wajda said at the Citizen's Committee that he had been looking to see how he could make a sequel to his film, Man of Iron. There was plenty for him to film that August: the crowds, the rallies, the men wandering around the palace. I told him later on, 'I see from this that a revolution is more photogenic than negotiations, and I agree with that completely. But does this mean that, to the delight of film-goers, society needs to be organising revolutions all the time?' Particularly failed ones because those are the kind that make the best films and is a dream come true for a cinematographer. Now let's put this in the context of the interest taken by the average person in the Round Table, as you say. There was nothing much to see, just some men coming out and talking about indices and ecology and things like that. To be honest, I'd prefer to watch a Western, particularly as this wasn't a direct answer to the expectations of the man in the street who only wanted to be able to get some meat in the shop, didn't he? No one was giving him a straight answer to that question. From that point of view of course there was no special interest in the Round Table if we're going to measure interest according to TV ratings. I'm sure Westerns were more popular. However, I'm certain that a good, featured programme where several outspoken guys would have got together and talked about food supplies would have had an audience. However, I was arguing with you over the approach towards the issue of the Round Table. Those are two entirely separate things. Nevertheless, I agree with you that if you're saying people are exhausted, impatient, fed up, want things to be better but feel that everything is getting worse and that it could all explode and overcome this whole issue, that's true. Especially as this issue requires work and effort whereas people are completely fed up. Society has an enormous longing for peace and this is a stabilising factor which our extremists don't understand at all. Like everyone else, they talk about society but they mean themselves and their friends. And it doesn't get through to them that when they organise these demonstrations, there's a small group marching while people all around are just looking at them because most people just want peace and quiet. However, this longing for peace might, of course, collapse and then everything else will collapse, too. It'll collapse in the sense that it co-exists with apathy, with frustration and that can easily change into aggression. This is true, it is I know perhaps the greatest threat to this whole process that we are starting off here.

Trzeba też sobie zdawać sprawę z takiego to faktu. Wajda na Komitecie Obywatelskim zaraz po przyjeździe z tej Japonii mówił, że on się patrzył  jakby on mógł nakręcić dalszą część swojego Człowieka z żelaza. I wtedy było co kręcić, jak był ten sierpień: tłumy, wiece, tego... a tu chodzą jacyś panowie po pałacu. Ja mu potem powiedziałem: "Rozumiem z tego, że rewolucja jest bardziej fotogeniczna niż pertraktacje i zgadzam się w pełni. Ale czy z tego wynika, że ku radości filmowców, społeczeństwo powinno stale robić rewolucje?" Zwłaszcza przegrane, bo najlepiej się filmuje przegrane rewolucje, to jest w ogóle wymarzone dla filmowca. Otóż przenieśmy to na zainteresowanie, na to zainteresowanie zwykłego człowieka, jak mówicie, Okrągłym Stołem. Nie było to widowiskowe, wychodzili faceci i opowiadali coś o indeksacjach, ekologiach, takich rzeczach. Ja osobiście wolałbym oglądać western, powiem szczerze i uczciwie. Tym bardziej, że nie była to odpowiedź wprost na oczekiwania człowieka, który po prostu chciałby dostać w sklepie mięso na przykład, prawda? Wprost mu na te pytania nikt nie odpowiadał. Z tego punktu widzenia oczywiście specjalnego zainteresowania Okrągłym Stołem nie było, jeśli zainteresowanie mierzyć otwieralnością tego telewizora na to. Na pewno westerny to przebijały i na pewno dobra audycja publicystyczna, w której siadłoby paru pyskatych facetów i rozmawiało o zaopatrzeniu, byłaby też lepiej oglądana. Natomiast spierałem się z wami co do stosunku do faktu, jakim był Okrągły Stół. To całkiem inne dwie rzeczy. Niemniej oczywiście zgadzam się, że jeżeli znowu chcecie powiedzieć, że oni, że ludzie są zmęczeni, zniecierpliwieni, mają dość wszystkiego, chcieliby żeby było lepiej, a psychologicznie czują, że jest gorzej, to może się tak zdarzyć, że to wszystko przemieni się w eksplozję i pochłonie cały  ten interes – to prawda. Tym bardziej, że ten interes wymaga pracy, wysiłków, a już dość ludzie mają wszystkiego. Jest w społeczeństwie olbrzymie, olbrzymie pragnienie spokoju i ono jest czynnikiem stabilizującym i nasi dzielni ekstremiści tego zupełnie nie rozumieją. Oni też podobnie, jak wszyscy zresztą, mówią: społeczeństwo, mając na myśli siebie i swoich kolegów. I nic im to nie mówi, że jak robią te demonstracje, to idzie mała grupka, a w koło ludzie patrzą, że po prostu większość chce spokoju. Ale może się oczywiście zdarzyć, że się to pragnienie spokoju złamie i wtedy załamie się wszystko. Złamie w tym sensie, że po prostu, bo to jest współistnienie z apatią, frustracją, a to się łatwo może przerodzić w agresję. To prawda, to jest, bo ja wiem, może najpoważniejsze zagrożenie tego procesu, który zaczynamy.

The late Polish activist, Jacek Kuroń (1934-2004), had an influential but turbulent political career, helping transform the political landscape of Poland. He was expelled from the communist party, arrested and incarcerated. He was also instrumental in setting up the Workers' Defence Committee (KOR) and later became a Minister of Labour and Social Policy.

Listeners: Marcel Łoziński Jacek Petrycki

Film director Marcel Łoziński was born in Paris in 1940. He graduated from the Film Directing Department of the National School of Film, Television and Theatre in Łódź in 1971. In 1994, he was nominated for an American Academy Award and a European Film Academy Award for the documentary, 89 mm from Europe. Since 1995, he has been a member of the American Academy of Motion Picture Art and Science awarding Oscars. He lectured at the FEMIS film school and the School of Polish Culture of Warsaw University. He ran documentary film workshops in Marseilles. Marcel Łoziński currently lectures at Andrzej Wajda’s Master School for Film Directors. He also runs the Dragon Forum, a European documentary film workshop.

Cinematographer Jacek Petrycki was born in Poznań, Poland in 1948. He has worked extensively in Poland and throughout the world. His credits include, for Agniezka Holland, Provincial Actors (1979), Europe, Europe (1990), Shot in the Heart (2001) and Julie Walking Home (2002), for Krysztof Kieslowski numerous short films including Camera Buff (1980) and No End (1985). Other credits include Journey to the Sun (1998), directed by Jesim Ustaoglu, which won the Golden Camera 300 award at the International Film Camera Festival, Shooters (2000) and The Valley (1999), both directed by Dan Reed, Unforgiving (1993) and Betrayed (1995) by Clive Gordon both of which won the BAFTA for best factual photography. Jacek Petrycki is also a teacher and a filmmaker.

Tags: Round Table, Citizen's Committee, Man of Iron, Andrzej Wajda

Duration: 3 minutes, 5 seconds

Date story recorded: 1987

Date story went live: 12 June 2008