There is some analytic work. The theoretical immunologists do a lot of analytic work, and you do… and you do analytic work and some other people do analytic work. So it's not absent. No, but the dominance is… But we need more… we need more, how shall I say, mobility among analytic and computer models and so on, I think. We need more interaction among people. We haven't developed departments, not at all, but we have to some extent developed groups of people who have different vocabularies and different notation and different leaders and so on, and… and don't interact nearly so much as they should. Next summer's integrative workshop may help a little with that but only if people actually listen to one another rather than just speaking at one another.

[Q] I… I wanted to ask you a little bit about that, about this… this business that one of the… one of the dicta of the Santa Fe Institute had been not to have departments, of course, it was antithetical to the whole idea, and the question of how to avoid precisely…

Well we don't have departments, so that's not an issue. We're not going to have departments.

[Q] Absolutely not, but how to avoid the issue which you've just raised, how do you stop not departments, but the groupings of people who…

Well I don't think we have to stop them but we need more integration and I think that maybe the integrative workshop, if it's handled better than last time, may… may produce that, but it's essential that people really be encouraged to listen to one another and argue with one another and not just talk past one another. I think maybe it will help some.