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Trial of Father Popiełuszko's murderers

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Father Popiełuszko
Jan Józef Lipski Social activist
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Księdza Popiełuszkę poznałem już po wyjściu z więzienia. Zrobił od razu na mnie ogromne wrażenie i od razu poczułem, że mam do czynienia z kimś bliskim i starałem się od czasu do czasu z nim spotykać się, rozmawiać. Spotkał mnie ten wielki zaszczyt, że od ołtarza w czasie trwania mszy, mówiłem dziesięć minut na zaproszenie księdza Popiełuszki na mszy w rocznicę powstania w getcie. Gdy księdzu Popiełuszce, który chciał, żebym w tej roli wystąpił, powiedziałem: „Ale proszę księdza, ja nie jestem człowiekiem wierzącym”. Na co ksiądz Popiełuszko powiedział: „Ale wiem mniej więcej, domyślam się, co Pan zechce powiedzieć w przybliżeniu i w związku z tym nie chciałbym Pana kim innym zastępować”. No jest to jeden z największych zaszczytów, który mnie w życiu spotkał. Ale muszę powiedzieć, że przy okazji którejś Mszy za Ojczyznę, kiedy... słyszałem, to co mówił ksiądz, gdy widziałem reakcje ludzi, to w złą godzinę, jak to się mówi, powiedziałem do żony: „Oni go muszą zabić”. I było to wykrakane rzeczywiście w złą godzinę. Ksiądz Popiełuszko wywierał po prostu tak ogromny wpływ na ludzi, jednocześnie był tak łagodny w tym, co mówi, tak nieprzekraczający ani o milimetr tego, co chrześcijanin i katolicki ksiądz ma prawo moralnie... z punktu widzenia moralnego powiedzieć w takich sytuacjach w których się kraj wówczas znajdował, że właściwie nie było wiadomo naprawdę co z nim zrobić. No, jak wiemy, były te próby jakoś zneutralizowania go poprzez interwencję u władz kościelnych. Jak wiemy, nie był to ukochany kapłan arcybiskupa diecezji warszawskiej i zarazem prymasa Polski, Glempa. Przeżywał to bardzo, gdyż nie był to człowiek, któremu takie sytuacje byłyby obojętne. No i kiedy się w pewnym momencie okazało, że ksiądz przepadł gdzieś, ani dla mnie, ani chyba dla nikogo w tym momencie – przynajmniej kto trochę bliżej, kto widział, kto słyszał, kto wiedział, kto to jest ksiądz Popiełuszko – nie ulegało wątpliwości, co się stało. To był moment w którym, można powiedzieć, wielu ludzi, w tym również i ja... niemalże zamieszkaliśmy na tamtej plebani, robiąc...no...dużą akcję propagandową, uświadamiającą, organizacyjną. Dzięki temu, że świadek wydarzeń, przynajmniej do pewnego momentu, ale świadek porwania ocalał, rzeczywiście dzięki swojej niezwykłej zarówno odwadze, jak i sprawności fizycznej – powiedzmy sobie, nie wiem, czy miałbym odwagę skakać z szybko jadącego samochodu, ale na pewno by mi się to nie udało – no to dzięki temu tutaj nie było nieznanych sprawców w rezultacie. Tutaj sprawcy okazali się znani. Proces był skandalem.

[Q] Czy może powiedzieć Pan: kto?

Aha. Był to... tym człowiekiem, który przesądził tutaj o tym, że nie byli... że był... że musiało dojść do procesu, był to szofer i zarazem przyboczny taki człowiek księdza Popiełuszki, Chrostowski, zarazem przyjaciel.

I met Father Popiełuszko after I came out of prison. He made a huge impression on me right from the start. I felt I was dealing with someone who was close to me; I made the effort to meet with him every now and again to speak with him. I had the enormous privilege of addressing the congregation for 10 minutes from the altar at the invitation of Father Popiełuszko during a Mass held on the anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. When I told Father Popiełuszko, who wanted me to make this address, ‘But, Father, I am not a believer’, he replied, ‘But I know more or less, I can guess what you intend to say and that's why I don't want to ask anyone else to make this address’. This was one of the greatest privileges I've had in my life but I have to say that during one of the Masses for the Homeland, when I saw and heard what Father Popiełuszko was saying, when I saw how people were reacting, I turned to my wife and said inopportunely, ‘They're going to have to kill him’. These were indeed ill-spoken words said at the wrong time. The influence of Father Popiełuszko on people was so great yet at the same time, he was so gentle in everything he said, never overstepping even slightly the boundaries within which a Christian and Catholic priest has the moral right... can say from the moral point of view in the situation in which the country then found itself, and so no one really knew what to do with him. As we know, there were those attempts to neutralise him through the intervention of the Church authorities, and as we also know he wasn't the favourite priest of the archbishop of the Warsaw diocese who was also the Primate of Poland, Cardinal Glemp. This distressed Father Popiełuszko greatly since he wasn't the kind of person who could remain indifferent to such situations. When it turned out that Father Popiełuszko had disappeared, neither I nor anyone else who had a better understanding, who knew who Father Popiełuszko was, had any doubts as to what had happened. Many people, including myself, virtually took up residence at the presbytery at that time, generating a huge amount of publicity, raising awareness, organising, and thanks to the fact that a witness of the events – at least up to a certain point – a witness of the kidnap survived thanks to his extraordinary courage as well as his physical fitness, because I don't know if I'd have the courage to jump from a fast-moving car, but I'm sure I wouldn't have succeeded. Well, thanks to this, there were no unknown assailants. Here, the assailants were known. The trial was a scandal.

[Q] Could you tell us who?

The person who determined that a trial had to be held was the driver, the assistant and at the same time friend of Father Popiełuszko, a person called Chrostowski.

Jan Józef Lipski (1926-1991) was one of Poland's best known political activists. He was also a writer and a literary critic. As a soldier in the Home Army (Armia Krajowa), he fought in the Warsaw Uprising. In 1976, following worker protests, he co-founded the Workers' Defence Committee (KOR). His active opposition to Poland's communist authorities led to his arrest and imprisonment on several occasions. In 1987, he re-established and headed the Polish Socialist Party. Two years later, he was elected to the Polish Senate. He died in 1991 while still in office. For his significant work, Lipski was honoured with the Cross of the Valorous (Krzyż Walecznych), posthumously with the Grand Cross of the Order of Polonia Restituta (1991) and with the highest Polish decoration, the Order of the White Eagle (2006).

Listeners: Jacek Petrycki Marcel Łoziński

Cinematographer Jacek Petrycki was born in Poznań, Poland in 1948. He has worked extensively in Poland and throughout the world. His credits include, for Agniezka Holland, Provincial Actors (1979), Europe, Europe (1990), Shot in the Heart (2001) and Julie Walking Home (2002), for Krysztof Kieslowski numerous short films including Camera Buff (1980) and No End (1985). Other credits include Journey to the Sun (1998), directed by Jesim Ustaoglu, which won the Golden Camera 300 award at the International Film Camera Festival, Shooters (2000) and The Valley (1999), both directed by Dan Reed, Unforgiving (1993) and Betrayed (1995) by Clive Gordon both of which won the BAFTA for best factual photography. Jacek Petrycki is also a teacher and a filmmaker.

Film director Marcel Łoziński was born in Paris in 1940. He graduated from the Film Directing Department of the National School of Film, Television and Theatre in Łódź in 1971. In 1994, he was nominated for an American Academy Award and a European Film Academy Award for the documentary, 89 mm from Europe. Since 1995, he has been a member of the American Academy of Motion Picture Art and Science awarding Oscars. He lectured at the FEMIS film school and the School of Polish Culture of Warsaw University. He ran documentary film workshops in Marseilles. Marcel Łoziński currently lectures at Andrzej Wajda’s Master School for Film Directors. He also runs the Dragon Forum, a European documentary film workshop.

Tags: Warsaw Uprising, Christian, Catholic, Warsaw diocese, Primate of Poland, Father Jerzy Popiełuszko, Cardinal Józef Glemp, Waldemar Chrostowski

Duration: 4 minutes, 55 seconds

Date story recorded: October 1989

Date story went live: 15 March 2011