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Herbert and Miłosz

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Herbert's attack on Słonimski
Julia Hartwig Poet
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Kiedyś zaprosiliśmy Słonimskich z Rudnickim – czasem i kogoś dopraszaliśmy dla towarzystwa – i następne spotkanie odbyło się u nas przy stole, odbyło się u nas z udziałem Herberta i jego żony Katarzyny. No... wydawało nam się, że to niczemu nie zagraża, że to jest połączenie doskonałe – bo ludzie, którzy są po tej samej stronie politycznie – no aleśmy się bardzo zawiedli, dlatego że po kilku kieliszkach Zbyszek jednak zrobił się bardzo agresywny, zaczął atakować Słonimskiego o różne rzeczy. Ale tu akurat tutaj o pewne rzeczy można było go zaatakować, bo on zaraz po przyjeździe do Polski bardzo konformistycznie się zachowywał, znaczy nie zrobił nic złego, ale pisywał rzeczy do których myślę, niechętnie wracał potem. Tak że oczywiście trafił Zbyszek, bo on takie rzeczy świetnie wiedział, co kto złego robi, to... i... no więc Artur próbował intermediować, a chociaż był uznany za świetnego mediatora i na to... na takie stanowisko go... po... po prostu proszono, to tym razem mediacja nie wypadła. Przeniosła się agresja na własną żonę i to było o wiele bardziej bolesne, bo usłyszeliśmy takie bardzo nieprzyjemne rzeczy, które powiedział Kasi, no właściwie nie oparte na niczym. No i ona... ona była niestety często w takiej... w takiej skórze i to mimo to, że to było właściwie małżeństwo dobre, z całą pewnością, a w każdym razie z jej strony ogromnie ofiarne. Już potem już jak chorował – chorował i trzeba było się nim zajmować i był chwilami troszkę niepoczytalny – robił różne rzeczy, których... zamawiał na przykład ogromne maszyny drukarskie – gdzieś zamówił, Kasia musiała iść tam i przeprosić za męża, że nie, że chwilowo nie skorzystamy.

[Q] Jak reagował Słonimski na te ataki wtedy?

Nic nie mówił. Nic nie mówił. Tak jak on był naprawdę twardy w języku i umiał się wypowiedzieć, to tutaj był tak zaskoczony i myślę, że był tak zgorszony, bo już nie chodziło o to, co on mówi – Herbert – tylko że w ogóle tak się zachowuje, że oni tu byli w gościach – byli naszymi gośćmi – więc nie obraża się gości u gości, prawda.

We invited the Słonimskis with Rudnicki – occasionally we'd invited someone else to make up the company – and the next meeting was around the table in our home with Herbert and his wife, Katarzyna. We thought nothing could go wrong, that it was good combination of people because they were all on the same political side but we were very mistaken because after a few drinks, Zbyszek became very aggressive and began to attack Słonimski over various issues. In this case, there was a reason for attacking him because soon after his return to Poland he behaved in a very conformist way, I mean, he didn't do anything bad but he wrote things which, I think, he later returned to unwillingly. So, of course, Zbyszek hit his mark because he knew things like that, who had committed which misdemeanor, so Artur tried to mediate and although he was known as an excellent mediator and he was often asked to perform that role, this time it didn't work. The aggression was transferred to his wife and this was much more painful because we heard some very unpleasant things that he addressed to Kasia which weren't based on anything. She, unfortunately, was often in this position despite which this was definitely a good marriage, or at least on her part, she made a lot of sacrifices. Later, when he fell ill, and he needed care and at times he was a bit insane, he did all sorts of things which... for instance, he'd order enormous printing machines from somewhere and Kasia had to go there and apologise in her husband's name saying that for the moment, they wouldn't be availing themselves of the equipment.

[Q] How did Słonimski react to those attacks at that time?

He said nothing. He said nothing. Although he had a very sharp tongue and was able to express himself, on this occasion, he was taken aback and, I think, he was so horrified because it wasn't so much a matter of what Herbert was saying as altogether the way he was behaving, that here they were, guests in someone's home, our guests, and so you don't insult guests when you're a guest, too, do you?

Born to a Polish father and a Russian mother, Julia Hartwig (1921-2017) was a Polish poet, essayist, translator and author of children's books. She studied at the University of Warsaw, the Catholic University in Lublin and the Jagiellonian University in Kraków. Czesław Miłosz called her 'the grande dame of Polish poetry'. Julia Hartwig was one of the few poets in Poland who made masterly use of poetic prose. She translated poems by Apollinaire, Rimbaud, Max Jacob, Cendrars and Supervielle, and published monographs on Apollinaire and Gerard de Nerval. She also translated from English, and published a large anthology of American poetry which she co-edited in 1992 with her late husband, the poet Artur Międzyrzecki.

Listeners: Andrzej Wolski

Film director and documentary maker, Andrzej Wolski has made around 40 films since 1982 for French television, the BBC, TVP and other TV networks. He specializes in portraits and in historical films. Films that he has directed or written the screenplay for include Kultura, which he co-directed with Agnieszka Holland, and KOR which presents the history of the Worker’s Defence Committee as told by its members. Andrzej Wolski has received many awards for his work, including the UNESCO Grand Prix at the Festival du Film d’Art.

Tags: Antoni Słonimski, Janina Konarska-Słonimska, Adolf Rudnicki, Zbigniew Herbert, Katarzyna Herbert

Duration: 2 minutes, 24 seconds

Date story recorded: June 2010

Date story went live: 15 June 2011