We came to Cal Tech, and that again brought me in direct contact with the Phage Group – the Phage Church – at which I met many people there that had become… you know, had become… had become lifelong friends. And I gave a talk on Seymour's work there again, and spent a few days there, and then went up to Berkeley to see the Virus Lab where I actually started to work with Gunther Stent. And what was so interesting in those times was you could arrive at a lab and do an experiment. You know, you didn't have to write a lot of paper. So the thing we got interested in were protoplasts. I wanted to do work on phage. Now, at that stage… and… and the whole idea that you could get the inside of a bacterium, a protoplast, and the whole idea of a little something less than the cell, therefore of great interest was something that… of course, now it's just ridiculous, because what we just took off was the hard carbohydrate cell wall and got to grips with the cell. But the experiment we did there was to show that protoplasts could continue to produce phage. And that actually started off a whole line of work on protoplast biology which people thought were the first steps to a sub-cellular system, which we didn't have, that would do complex things and... on which you could do biochemistry.