Now, here is a page on which I see January 7 '62, 8:00pm, 414 Park Avenue South and it is Amos Vogel who was running Cinema 16, myself, my brother, David Books, David Stone, Jack Carmin who was a lawyer, attorney, Stan van der Beek, Ron Rice, Mike Brothers-Burton, Ken Jacobs, Gregory Markopoulos, Rudy Berker, Ray Wisniewski, Louis Brigante, and Marzano, Robert Downey and Bob Hemps and Robert Breer. Really, it like the main the... the people working in the sort of avant-garde or film area at that time, so and, of course, Amos Vogel was there who was the only distributor, not the only, there was a woman by the name... there was a little, little distribution centre called Radim Films, that had, included some of the, some of the Curtis Harrington, Davis and Markopoulos, I think one film by Markopoulos. So, Amos Vogel, of course, at... did everything to advise us that its very unwise to create another distribution centre when there was already one that he was running, that there was no place, that there were no demand for that much work and of course we said, and then when we asked him why he did not distribute our films, why he refused oh... Stan Brakhage's Anticipation of the Night, he said that he has his principles and his standards and he cannot distribute this type of work. So that you know we should understand that, so that was the end of the discussion. We said, if you refuse Anticipation of the Night then and, and Stan van der Beek that's it, the vote we took was unanimous and, and Amos considers me his enemy till this day. So, very unwisely so because I... he did a great job to promote avant-garde film, for a decade when nobody else did anything and I always supported him and praised him and I'm still praising now. But he time had come and which he, even today, does not understand that that the times were changing, that there was a new generation of film-makers, making different kind of film and okay, there were no outlets, we'll create them and we created them.