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Debating societies at the university

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I discover pluralism
Jacek Kuroń Social activist
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Z tych całych bojów na Uniwersytecie Warszawskim... w harcerstwie, wyciągnęliśmy wniosek w kręgu Walterowców, a głównie ja sam, taki oto, że tu jest niezbędny pluralizm, że bez pluralizmu nie ma mowy o demokracji. Była to dla mnie wielka nauka, wielkie doświadczenie. To bardzo dziwne, jak długo szedłem do tego pluralizmu i zabawne, że tak samo długo szli wszyscy inni moi koledzy z Października, choć różnymi drogami szli, bo i Kołakowski także przecież. Między 1956, gdzie myśmy, walcząc przeciw dyktaturze biurokratycznej, dyktaturze biurokracji partyjnej i o demokrację, nie rozumieli pluralizmu, potrzeby niezbędności pluralizmu, to jest 1956, aż po 1959-60, kiedy nagle różnymi drogami zaczęliśmy do tego dochodzić. Karol Modzelewski był cały czas we Włoszech. Przyjechał taki napalony do działania i po prostu do tego pluralizmu dogadaliśmy się w powietrzu. To było oczywiste i dla niego, i dla mnie. Tyle tylko, że panowało powszechne zniechęcenie. Karol obszedł, obeszliśmy później razem mnóstwo różnych ludzi, naszych dawnych towarzyszy z Października, różnych i okazywało się, że nikt nie chce działać. Nikt. Bardzo śmieszne, bo nawet Kołakowski powiedział: "Nie, tu się nic nie zrobi". To bardzo zabawne, myśmy tam mu coś tłumaczyli, że trzeba zrobić. I w jakieś dwa tygodnie potem on do mnie przyszedł i powiedział: "Wiesz, doszedłem do wniosku, że jednak coś robić trzeba, że macie rację". I muszę powiedzieć, że zaimponował mi wtedy niesłychanie. Czytałem jego wielkie, różne książki. Różne etapy ważne mojego życia znaczyły jego przemyślenia, ale najbardziej mi zaimponował tą historią – przyszedł do gówniarza, który nic nie znaczy przecież, on już wtedy europejskiej sławy uczony i powiada: "Wiesz, mieliście rację, doszedłem do wniosku, że coś trzeba robić".

After all this conflict at the University of Warsaw and in the scouts, we Walterowcy, well chiefly I, came to the conclusion that pluralism was essential, because without pluralism democracy was out of the question. This was a very great experience for me. It's odd how it took me a very long time to reach this decision on pluralism and quite funny that it took my friends from the October period just as long, although each of us got there by a different route, even Kołakowski. Between '56 when we were fighting against the dictatorship of bureaucracy, the dictatorship of Party bureaucracy and for democracy, we didn't understand pluralism nor how essential it was. This was from '56 right up to '59-'60 when we suddenly began to arrive at that point by various routes. Karol Modzelewski was in Italy for all that time. When he got back, he was so enthusiastic and wanted to act immediately, so we agreed on pluralism as being the way forward straight away. It was obvious to both him and to me. The only problem was a general lack of enthusiasm. Karol went around, later we both went around lots of different people, all our old friends from the October days, but it turned out that no one wanted to get involved with any action. No-one. This was very funny and even Kołakowski said, 'No, you won't manage to do anything here.' It was all very amusing; we explained to him that something has to be done. About two weeks later he came to me and said, 'You know, I've come to the conclusion that something has to be done, you're right.' And I have to say that he made a huge impression on me then. I read some of his enormous books. His thoughts have marked out various stages of my life, but he made the biggest impression on me with this story by coming to a young, insignificant kid when he was already an acclaimed academic known throughout Europe saying, 'You know, you were right, I've reached the conclusion that something has to be done.'

The late Polish activist, Jacek Kuroń (1934-2004), had an influential but turbulent political career, helping transform the political landscape of Poland. He was expelled from the communist party, arrested and incarcerated. He was also instrumental in setting up the Workers' Defence Committee (KOR) and later became a Minister of Labour and Social Policy.

Listeners: Marcel Łoziński Jacek Petrycki

Film director Marcel Łoziński was born in Paris in 1940. He graduated from the Film Directing Department of the National School of Film, Television and Theatre in Łódź in 1971. In 1994, he was nominated for an American Academy Award and a European Film Academy Award for the documentary, 89 mm from Europe. Since 1995, he has been a member of the American Academy of Motion Picture Art and Science awarding Oscars. He lectured at the FEMIS film school and the School of Polish Culture of Warsaw University. He ran documentary film workshops in Marseilles. Marcel Łoziński currently lectures at Andrzej Wajda’s Master School for Film Directors. He also runs the Dragon Forum, a European documentary film workshop.

Cinematographer Jacek Petrycki was born in Poznań, Poland in 1948. He has worked extensively in Poland and throughout the world. His credits include, for Agniezka Holland, Provincial Actors (1979), Europe, Europe (1990), Shot in the Heart (2001) and Julie Walking Home (2002), for Krysztof Kieslowski numerous short films including Camera Buff (1980) and No End (1985). Other credits include Journey to the Sun (1998), directed by Jesim Ustaoglu, which won the Golden Camera 300 award at the International Film Camera Festival, Shooters (2000) and The Valley (1999), both directed by Dan Reed, Unforgiving (1993) and Betrayed (1995) by Clive Gordon both of which won the BAFTA for best factual photography. Jacek Petrycki is also a teacher and a filmmaker.

Tags: University of Warsaw, Walterowcy, Party, Leszek Kołakowski, Karol Modzelewski

Duration: 2 minutes, 5 seconds

Date story recorded: 1987

Date story went live: 12 June 2008