a story lives forever
Register
Sign in
Form submission failed!

Stay signed in

Recover your password?
Register
Form submission failed!

Web of Stories Ltd would like to keep you informed about our products and services.

Please tick here if you would like us to keep you informed about our products and services.

I have read and accepted the Terms & Conditions.

Please note: Your email and any private information provided at registration will not be passed on to other individuals or organisations without your specific approval.

Video URL

You must be registered to use this feature. Sign in or register.

NEXT STORY

The formation of a mass movement

RELATED STORIES

The 'reform' of totalitarianism
Jacek Kuroń Social activist
Comments (0) Please sign in or register to add comments

[Q] A dlaczego nagle ta władza się zdecydowała na taki krok? Czy myślisz, że to właśnie ta władza jest gotowa dojść do tego ładu demokratycznego?

Ja to napisałem parę razy... odpowiedź na to pytanie napisałem parę razy, wygłaszam go dwa, trzy razy dziennie na swoich spotkaniach wyborczych. Myślę, że to jest tak: system totalitarny, to znaczy system centralnego sterowania życiem społecznym całym, całą współpracą społeczną, dawno już ukazał swoją całkowitą nieefektywność we wszystkich dziedzinach. Jakby trzymały go dwie dziedziny... trzymały go dwie sprawy. Jedna to ta, że okazał się być niesłychanie skutecznym środkiem utrzymywania władzy i co się z tym ściśle wiąże, potrafił względnie skutecznie działać w jednym jedynym obranym celu, prostym. To znaczy właśnie gromadzić środki na zbrojenia na przykład. Tu można by długo mówić na czym się to opierało, ale jedno muszę powiedzieć, bo wydaje mi się ważne, że mianowicie jednym z jej najistotniejszych elementów tego była taka swoista chora umowa społeczna. Mianowicie system totalitarny czynił wszystkich wspólnikami zbrodni, całe społeczeństwo uczestniczyli i całe społeczeństwo jest jakby współodpowiedzialne za niego. Wszyscy pracują dla państwa, w państwie, w tym tam molochu totalitarnym i wszyscy jakoś do tego przykładają ręki. Skutek szeregu jeszcze innych czynników wszyscy maszerują na pochodach, klaskają, wznoszą okrzyki. Oto na przestrzeni ostatnich 10-15 lat powoli, a ostatnio nagle okazało się, że i w tych dwóch dziedzinach ten system jest nieefektywny też, stał się nieefektywny. To najlepiej można było zobaczyć na przykładzie "Solidarności", bo to totalitaryzm zrodził taką "Solidarność", to znaczy 10-milionowy zwarty ruch i za którym skupiło się prawie całe społeczeństwo w czasach tych 16 miesięcy. I to wyraźnie pokazało rządzącym, że to jest los jakby... że to jest nie tylko polska specyfika, że to się musi stać tak lub inaczej w każdym kraju. Oczywiście tylko najbardziej dalekowzroczni zobaczyli to i wyciągnęli z tego wnioski. Ale wyciągnęli i zrozumieli, że trzeba system totalitarny reformować. Bardzo długo próbowali rozwiązać kwadraturę koła, to znaczy tak go zreformować, żeby on pozostał totalitarny. To jest gotowanie śnieżnych kul. Ale też znowu trzeba powiedzieć na chwałę tych kilkudziesięciu czy kilkuset w skali bloku ludzi, czyli oni też zrozumieli, że to nie ma rady trzeba iść w stronę demokracji gospodarki rynkowej, że to jest ze sobą ściśle powiązane, te dwa czynniki. No i w tej sytuacji oni musieli szukać sojuszników po stronie opozycji, po stronie sił, które są... walczą z totalitaryzmem o demokrację. Bo jakby gdzie indziej sojuszników nie mogli znaleźć.

[Q] Why did the authorities suddenly decide to take that step? Do you think this government is ready to attain this democratic order?

I've written about this several times, I've given a written reply to this several times, I speak about it two, three times a day at my election meetings. I think this is how it is: the totalitarian system, meaning a system where social life is guided centrally, showed itself to be completely ineffective in every way a long time ago. There appear to be two areas that kept the system alive, two issues. The first was that it turned out to be an incredibly effective way of maintaining power and, what is directly connected to this, it was fairly successful in fulfilling its one and only simple objective. This means, for example, getting the means to obtain armaments. There's a lot we could say about what this depended on but there's one thing I have to say because I think it's important. Namely, one of the essential elements in all of this was a kind of sick social collusion because the totalitarian system made everyone into a partner in crime, the whole of society participated and the whole of society was responsible for it. Everyone works for the state, in the state, in that vast totalitarian entity, and everyone somehow is involved. The outcome of a series of other factors - everyone marching in the parades, applauding, shouting. Over the last 10-15 years it has gradually, and now suddenly, become apparent that even in these last two areas this system is ineffective, has become ineffective, too. This was best illustrated in the case of Solidarność because it was totalitarianism which generated Solidarność, a 10-million strong movement which had the support of almost the entire land throughout 16 months. And this clearly showed the government that this is the fate, that this isn't just specific to Poland but that the same thing has to happen sooner or later in every country. Of course, the only people who saw this and drew conclusions from it were those with the greatest foresight. But they did and they understood that the totalitarian system has to be reformed. They tried squaring the circle for a very long time, meaning they tried to reform in a way which wouldn't depart from totalitarianism. That's the same as boiling snowballs. But I have to give credit to those several hundred people in that whole block because they, too, realised that it can't be helped and that things must be moving in the direction of the democracy of the market economy, that these two factors are closely tied to one another. In this situation, then, they had to look for allies on the side of the opposition, on the side of the forces fighting for democracy against totalitarianism. They wouldn't be able to find allies anywhere else.

The late Polish activist, Jacek Kuroń (1934-2004), had an influential but turbulent political career, helping transform the political landscape of Poland. He was expelled from the communist party, arrested and incarcerated. He was also instrumental in setting up the Workers' Defence Committee (KOR) and later became a Minister of Labour and Social Policy.

Listeners: Jacek Petrycki Marcel Łoziński

Cinematographer Jacek Petrycki was born in Poznań, Poland in 1948. He has worked extensively in Poland and throughout the world. His credits include, for Agniezka Holland, Provincial Actors (1979), Europe, Europe (1990), Shot in the Heart (2001) and Julie Walking Home (2002), for Krysztof Kieslowski numerous short films including Camera Buff (1980) and No End (1985). Other credits include Journey to the Sun (1998), directed by Jesim Ustaoglu, which won the Golden Camera 300 award at the International Film Camera Festival, Shooters (2000) and The Valley (1999), both directed by Dan Reed, Unforgiving (1993) and Betrayed (1995) by Clive Gordon both of which won the BAFTA for best factual photography. Jacek Petrycki is also a teacher and a filmmaker.

Film director Marcel Łoziński was born in Paris in 1940. He graduated from the Film Directing Department of the National School of Film, Television and Theatre in Łódź in 1971. In 1994, he was nominated for an American Academy Award and a European Film Academy Award for the documentary, 89 mm from Europe. Since 1995, he has been a member of the American Academy of Motion Picture Art and Science awarding Oscars. He lectured at the FEMIS film school and the School of Polish Culture of Warsaw University. He ran documentary film workshops in Marseilles. Marcel Łoziński currently lectures at Andrzej Wajda’s Master School for Film Directors. He also runs the Dragon Forum, a European documentary film workshop.

Tags: Solidarność

Duration: 3 minutes, 38 seconds

Date story recorded: 1987

Date story went live: 12 June 2008